So, I'm joined with Brian Foraker who is a producer extraordinaire.

He's worked with Hart,

Yes, Whitesnake, all sorts of different artists.

And he also mixes and engineers, in addition to producing.

When he actually mastered my EP.

So, we're going to talk a little bit about the role of a producer,

and why it's important for young artists to actually have a producer.

So, Brian thank you for joining us today.

Thank you. Glad to be here.

So you work a lot with young artists,

and not only do you produce them,

but you kind of develop them along the way. Right?

Well, develop, mentor,

I think somewhere, depending on the artist, it's different.

I mean, some of them I'm developing,

some of them I'm just kind of giving them really truly advice.

Just from years having done this,

and kind of seeing all the pitfalls that people can fall into.

So, when you're kind of introduced to

a new indie artist or when an artist reaches out to you,

what are you kind of thinking about when

you're deciding whether or not you want to take that project on?

First, and second,

and third, are songs.

To me, the music for me personally has to move me, has to excite me,

otherwise, I don't really want to do something,

unless I'm excited about the music.

Because if I'm excited about the music,

my job is to take it to another level.

So, yes.

To me it's about the songs and that the people are good human beings.

Because if you're going to work with someone,

and you're in the studio with them for weeks.

Hours, and hours, and hours.

Hours and hours, yes. Or a quick record a day.

But no, it's a relationship.

So, when you begin working with an artist,

what do you like to see them kind of have in place ahead of time before

they approach you or before you kind of

come in to either mentor them or give them advice?

Are there certain things that you feel like an artist you kind of

have figured out already?

I think they should have a pretty good idea of what they think their sound is,

or at least have some good examples of,

hey on these songs we're kind of thinking this particular sound or production,

and maybe on these songs we would rather go here.

So, I think they should have a good understanding

of what kind of sound they're going for.

And I've been going through that recently with a band.

It's kind of brought in after the fact to kind of clear it up.

And he thought they were making one kind of record,

and the band thought they were making another kind of record.

So then it came to me to mix it.

So, yes. You're talking from the perspective of being a mixing engineer.

Yes. So, I come in at this point, and it's like, okay.

And I'd met with them, and we've talked about it.

And it was basically, they wanted to be a much more rock kind of thing,

pop rock kind of thing.

And the producer just thought he was making a different kind of record.

So, when I mixed it, the band was freaking out,

and so was the producer,

but for two different reasons.

In fact, they've all talked to me since.

They said it was a great learning experience because

they'd never discussed it while they were making the record.

They just thought they were all on the same page.

Which ultimately, they are now.

But we had to go through a song or two,

and hopefully it will continue to get better.

Ultimately, as a producer, you have to wear a lot of hats

because it's a game of psychology on a lot of levels.

My job is to make them sound better,

come across better than they ever dreamed.

So, artists are finicky people,

and we're all afraid.

And so, the goal is to try to get them comfortable and to push them

beyond their comfort zone

a little bit because that's usually where you get into the really good stuff.

But it's also a scary place. You know that.

It's a very scary place.

As an artist you know that.

I do know that, first hand.

It's a very scary place but it's a good place.

It's a good place to be in. And I think you're absolutely right.

I think that that's kind of where the magic happens,

when you're feeling a little uncomfortable.

It's this weird balance between feeling challenged but feeling comfortable to take risks,

and to try new things.

And I think that that's where you come up with

some really new and interesting ideas that you would have never even conceived of before.

There's a glue that happens emotionally I think in the music that way.

Yes, I agree. And I think I certainly relied on Johny

my producer to really kind of guide the session,

and make sure that those moments happen.

As an artist, you're thinking about so many things.

The last thing you really want to be concerned about

is whether or not this session is happening,

and whether there's chemistry happening with everyone. If that makes sense.

Right. It does.

You kind of are thinking about what you're doing,

and you're also interacting with others as you're recording,

but it's so helpful to have another set of

eyes watching what's happening in the live room.

Right. And also be able to steer it,

if it's kind of running off the track a little bit.

You can kind of, okay lets take 15 minutes or.

Yes. Take a break or something.

Just take a break,

and just kind of steer it the other way.

And it's hard sometimes.

I think as if you're the artist and the producer at the same time,

to really listen objectively.

Oh yes.

You know.

Oh yes, absolutely.

You're way too close to it as an artist.

Yes, yes, yes.

No, because you wrote every word,

and you know where you were mentally when you wrote that.

If it's a dark song,

that's where- you know that.

But the listener doesn't know that.

So, my part of my job would be to make sure that emotion comes through.

It's got to come through the speakers at some point.

And that's where you get into the tricky parts with some of these artist because it's,

okay, when you're doing vocals,

and you're singing about something really sensitive or upsetting,

somehow you've got to get that feeling through the speakers,

and that's not always- it's going to be painful.

It can be very painful. When we tracked "Make You Hurt",

I just sat in the corner and cried during basic tracking which not so many people know.

Because that's what music is and its emotion.

This one artist that we are working with,

we were talking about this yesterday.

It's like, there's so much music these days that

just doesn't seem to really ring true with the emotion.

I mean, we can all make perfect records,

but perfect records are ultimately boring.

It's all about emotion. You're trying to get something across.

Can you tell me about a time where there was an artist that you were working with,

where you kind of had differing opinions,

but you as the producer,

were able to kind of steer them in a direction that really was

ultimately kind of better for what they were trying to go for,

and what they envisioned?

Yes, I think I did a record actually here

in Nashville when I was still living in Los Angeles.

The artist was a guy named Johnny Van Zant who is now the singer in Skynyrd.

And we started by using his band that he played with live.

And at the time they just weren't- this was like the late 80s,

and they just weren't up to snuff as far as a recording studio.

They're great for live.

And we could have probably gotten there eventually,

but that's just not what were we had to go.

So, I had to kind of be the bearer of bad news.

It's like, you guys are great but- so,I had to bring in session players.

So, I was not very well liked.

That's a tough decision.

Yes, it was and it was,

no, this isn't good enough.

And it's hard to tell someone that.

Fortunately, Johnny trusted and said,

"Okay, do what you have to do".

And on that project,

because it still had to feel like a band,

in my opinion, I brought some session guys in from

LA and we went into rehearsal, ASR here.

And I booked a week. And these are studio musicians.

They could hear the song once and play it perfect.

Yes, it's insane.

But the point was, so we did.

We ran all of the songs down for two days.

And the rest of the week,

they just jammed and had fun,

and they went out and had drinks at night.

And by the time we went in the studio,

they thought they were a band because there was this chemistry.

How much difference that made at the end, I don't know.

But I think it did

make a difference because they felt they were a band because they'd been out drinking,

probably got drunk once or twice during that week.

Not that I'm encouraging that anyone,

but they felt like a band.

To me, that then translates to the music.

Yes, I think it absolutely makes a difference.

I mean, the session players that played on my record knew each other,

at least some of them knew each other already.

And so, while they weren't necessarily in a band per say,

they've played with each other,

they've gone on tour with each other, they know each other.

And so, there was much more kind of a band,

kind of vibe I think that that was captured.

I totally believe that vibe is definitely captured on a record.

It is. And that's the thing when as a producer or engineer,

when you're listening to playback.

I mean, you can play this,

you record the song five times and one of the five times is the right take.

Why is it the right take?

I don't know.

You can't measure it.

I mean, they're all played to the same tempo for whatever.

It's the same arrangement,

but there's always that something intangible that's in there.

And that's the vibe or that's the feel,

and there's no plug in for that.

Well, thank you so much Brian for joining us today.

Oh, my pleasure.

And I just can't thank you enough. You're just so great at what you do.

Well, thank you.

And so experienced. And I'm grateful that

you were able to share some of your wisdom and experience with our learners out there.

My pleasure. Thank you.

Case Study: Do You Need A Producer?

Navigate the Music Industry as an Independent Artist

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