5:26
So I think it's, [SOUND] take that?
>> Yeah. >> [COUGH] Well, yes, w,
we can tune the absorption of spectrum color of the, the [INAUDIBLE].
that's one of the advantages you can tailor to,
to have any absorption you like.
Of course in practical terms it's it's not that easy,
but we do have methods to make either, green, or blue, or red color.
And this is, in terms of use, or usage, it's
a great relevance for tandem solar cells where you would ideally one part of iii,
one part of the spectrum whereas it's transparent in a different region.
And you want a complementary column too that absorbs let's
say in the opposite way.
If you had more junctions of course you want differently absorbing materials,
materials absorbing in several different areas of the solar spectrum.
Interest to, to have absorption in all the solar spectrum,
because that's where the energy from the sun is.
We initially of course go for
the area of the solar spectrum where there is most energy.
That is in the visible region and the, the near-infrared.
The solar spectrum extends far out beyond
4,000 nanometers there's not so much energy.
So the question is, what, how much effort should you
put in to design the material and how much energy can we expect?
8:22
It's not available yet but it will be at some point.
>> Yeah, at some point.
And we had a follow up question, that we mentioned this on the phone.
Can I have a new label?
>> On the solar cell?
Yeah. >> Yeah, I mean definitely,
will move gently.
We don't, depending, we've,
we've shipped already, a few different types of, solar cells to you.
If you have a carbon based one I think the majority of people who will receive,
that have received it sort of all black, is no silver, all shiny,
[INAUDIBLE] all black, all red from the [INAUDIBLE] or blue.
And they are agreed.
The, this carousel does not like liquid water near [INAUDIBLE].
So if you try and steam off the label, I, I wouldn't recommend it.
I think you could get away with it.
Then, on a separate note, the the cell does not like sharp [INAUDIBLE],
it's quite a thin, so it's only about 100 microns thick.
And if you, it is possible to it sharp, if you do so,
you may risk de-laminating the two layers of the soil.
Basically two layers that are put together and
if you extend it tear too hard the label you may de-laminate the soil some.
So I think the odds suggest if you do in gentle, gently yes but a.
You may afford a risk at destroying [INAUDIBLE] And that's, I'm, I'm sorry.
We [LAUGH] that's data there, I cannot help, we cannot help you.
And so be gentle, that's all I'll say.
No sharp edges, no sharp things, no excessive [INAUDIBLE] Now,
don't dip it necc, necessarily in water.
I think it'll work, it'll short in water.
12:19
And the answer of course, is that OBE is an under performer.
It's not good enough.
To compete with other emerging technologies.
Solar cells are not good enough.
Yet.
Certainly not the old way, silicon and maybe solar technologies
could potentially compete, but they still rely heavily on subsidies.
So public, subsidies in use.
[INAUDIBLE] many, many,
many different ways of recording
people just using [INAUDIBLE] No?
Yeah?
[LAUGH].
Okay. Another question about [INAUDIBLE].
Basically, how do you [INAUDIBLE].
What is [INAUDIBLE]
[INAUDIBLE] [COUGH] Of course it's
been something to [INAUDIBLE] it depends a lot on the way
this decision is [INAUDIBLE] in principle we can, can work and
if use like better than some of the Earth and [INAUDIBLE].
But today Egan Chris from I.T. works quite well.
And a huge line to overpass I, I, still think that the the organic technologies
has the potential to poll really well in in Grade A where it's 100% accused line.
But in just looking at margins it's it's not as if
there's no magic area you have to suddenly make.
The world of energy new technology.
You are looking at.
And this could be a competitive edge, for sure,
but it's not going to make up for, a low efficiency or
the low efficiency that ["OPD/g"] has today when you compare to.
>> I was going to say, there is an aside to that question.
[INAUDIBLE]
>> That's a good
part, I think that's also why the other parts raised up on
the partial shading and maybe we should take that down.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah I mean
to me it's different [INAUDIBLE].
A real shock to Jonathan.
So its, if you shower it really, really kills the, the [INAUDIBLE] forms.
[INAUDIBLE] About to die, therefore had a shadowing,
much much better than the, typical PM function type so it's.
[INAUDIBLE] Okay.
15:24
Yeah, I mean absolutely.
[COUGH] Actually, the some of the, you that receive.
Some of you who received the sample have received the cells experiment where
we work on a very very low cost material that has ten teacher forms problems.
And you can actually see these problems in the.
And, especially when you should take this type of solar cell to a heat cycle.
You will see the grow.
And when the grow, they won't eventually eh, induce failure, eh, in the,
in the device.
So if you say that, here the device fails,
it's not because the solar cell material stops working.
But because a, should say.
The defect in the manufacturer.
Shortcoming in the manufacturer.
So you got excess to low cost barrier.
And it had the deficiency of these bottles that really needs cycling.
Because leads to this gradual growth of problems
that causes failures to the device.
Due to inoperation or delamination or other things.
So in that case, that type of solar cell would be very sensitive to heat cycling.
The OPV in general is not, it would not like higher temperatures.
So the higher the temperature, the faster the degradation reactions are.
Generally a, a chemist would look at any chemical reactions.
And say that they would increase the temperature ten degrees
any reaction taking place is increased by a factor of four.
That's a very rough rule of thumb.
At least if you go up by ten degrees we have a process that is happening in there
that may be a to start the process.
[INAUDIBLE].
We generally see this in addition to this style of course.
Although, effects the solar cell efficiency probably [INAUDIBLE] has
an glass position temperature, something like that.
If you passed that then of course is a totally different rate machine.
In terms of degradation that you get access to.
In generally means that when you increase temperature, degradation goes faster.
Cycling effect on, on thermal expansion and contraction is also more significant.
But it's more linked to mechanics.
The mechanical failure of the parts rather than,
than changing chemical reactions due to increased temperature.
You can always say that above 65 degrees OPV's start to see or
demonstrate faster degradation.
>> Perhaps add to that, that you have to have examples of solar cells placed
outside in Denmark where there are great cycles of temperature.
17:55
>> Yeah, we have samples of those two years outside where they're
still operating beyond T80.
And, and we also have the devices outside now since 2009 of course they've
degraded substantially, but they are still there.
Of five years on, and they're still operating.
But not, not at, not anywhere close to the, the starting point.
But they are still, they are not dead.
They, they are still, still possible to extract energy from five years on.
So, you know, thermocycling from day and night.
Day and night, and it's possible.
>> Okay, we are a lot of new questions coming in.
I think one that can just quickly answer this.
How many OPV facilities, research facilities are there in the world?
Eh, I can see here Andy's mentioning [INAUDIBLE] our place in Denmark and
Frankfort and Melbourne.
The, if you I think you answer is in terms of wall to wall
manufacturing capacity or I think.
>> Just in general.
>> If you take laboratories I mean it's an enormous amount.
I mean especially in Asia those,
my guess is there are thousands of laboratories in the world.
That has the capacity to make organic sources and they do it regularly.
It doesn't you're actually [INAUDIBLE] those
people who at one point Academics will make a study.
Where they're looking at something and
at the OPV the solar cell device is one way of studying some other materials.
So from that point of view they are a lot of them.
20:30
>> I think, I mean, well, the free OPV that, that's been sent for
the Coursera courses.
Harvest for about 650 nanometers.
We regularly make it and some of you will received these more green polymers.
More people have received the red, red one.
This, [INAUDIBLE] ship the blue and the green and
they go to maybe about furthest out maybe about 800 amperes.
Now, Eva here in her heyday made all the way to 2,000 nanometers.
The difficulty that you often use voltage [INAUDIBLE].
At the moment I would say that going much
beyond a 1,000 nanometers is actually quite cheaper.
Okay, another quick question.
Since it's of course, a big investment to start out with,
factories that can, when manufacturers go into those own solar cells.
It will be possible to retrofit em, existing plans that,
that draws off the plan.
Eh, I guess that's basically the question.
Is it possible to retrofit a plant that makes other printers.
>> So that they manufacture OPV?
Yeah, absolutely.
You need print, a printing machines.
Of, of course there are several different processes we've developed many in
the past.
Different process types, different machine,
you can do onscreen printing, there's a lot more [INAUDIBLE].
I'm sure you if you made an error or something,
it's a question of what machine do you have available.
It's certainly possible to tailor it inks and process so
it matches your machine, but this can be done.
We've done it several times.
>> Another question, unrelated,
is, relating to civility now,
what is the average working night at OPV.
>> Average, [CROSSTALK]. >> Eh, I mean, it, it depends, a lot,
on the purpose.
We do testing outside of, of the landscape.
And there we put significant effort towards packaging
the source of what this is really what matters when you go.
When you really want solar cell [INAUDIBLE].
It inherits the abilities of technologies.
It's on the order of several years.
May, maybe as much as eight to ten per day, if packaged correctly.
So it's all about packaging correctly.
And then not introducing errors when you install.
So you have to think a lot of how, how, how you, how to affect,
how I'm going to install it, how am I going to handle it on the waits list.
If you do that correctly.
We're looking at several years, as we demonstrate.
But, for instance the free OPV that we shipped to you.
I mean, I have to admit we are not going packaging.
because there is none.
And I'm sure these will effect it, there will be the delamination at edges.
And that, that for
some of you unfortunately will lead to a past interest.
And then, for others, that's also part of the experiment to see how,
how far can you push it.
So, so, the answer is if, if you know where you want to go, you,
we can access any areas.
But then, you have, you have to make the effort.
23:41
>> And also, it depends on the materials used and on the outset,
working with solar cells, with all of the layers in the cells.
We'll learn more about this in Group 4.
You'll have to wait [LAUGH].
>> Yeah okay, a question that's coming in here is
probably about MCA efficiency defaults.
I think we can extend this to say,
say something about the differences between the generations of photo cells.
So what is the full energy feedback time compared to different generations?
Are there limits in practice for
the different generations that others don't have?
I think,
I mean, it is a part of the [INAUDIBLE] >> [INAUDIBLE]
>> [INAUDIBLE]
>> Last week, [INAUDIBLE].
>> [INAUDIBLE] [CROSSTALK].
>> But, generally, NCA is, if you, of course, it's a very complicated
diagnosis that some of you made rather challenging, and it certainly is.
But if you step back and you re-look at what it is, it is a housekeeping exercise.
And often can be equated with either housekeeping or an advanced
banking system where you exchange current rates between different monetary systems.
And you have to add all these things.
Some numbers you can add, some you can't.
And the actual mathematics behind is not that complicated.
The amount of numbers that enter the equation is enormous.
And if we step one, one step even further back, it is even simply
using as little energy as possible in the tubes that constitute the solar cell, and
in the process of turning these materials, these raw materials, into a solar cell.
27:54
many of you would like to [INAUDIBLE] this article is [INAUDIBLE] access,
but I think [INAUDIBLE] >> Yeah.
I'll try this afternoon [INAUDIBLE] if it's possible to urgently get it paid
[INAUDIBLE] open access.
Of course, it's a little erratic that the source says, free, and
then, you have to be subject to extortion to actually read about it.
And this, of course, we'll have to change.
I'll see if I can get this changed this afternoon or
how soon we can actually get it on market.
Hopefully, the next session, the.
>> We have parts of [INAUDIBLE] I think that would be possible.
>> Yeah. >> And then, certainly,
also, when we have this for the next session, we're contemplating doing it, so
we, each time we address different time zones.
That means, now it's comfortable European time for us.
[INAUDIBLE].
>> We found already.
>> US time?
>> Three o'clock local time, yes.
>> [INAUDIBLE] If you have any wishes for
this live session, please just put it in here.
We've loaded our hopes on the form of.
Not India right now, I would say.
But the piece arriving, what would be your preferred time?
Are you up in the middle of the night to follow this right now?
How's this working for you?
31:20
Even if it still works out [INAUDIBLE]
be more quickly degraded [INAUDIBLE].
Basically, what is the largest [INAUDIBLE] using
the materials, and can they be processed into,
basically the question is is the problem
that [INAUDIBLE] and he also asks [INAUDIBLE].
That happened.
>> Well, the answer is yes to all materials we have remaining.
I mean, as long as you can just the material
can support the solid that we use, then it will work.
We should just say, that in the week three,
we're learning more about the materials.
And also here, the size of the material and how to make it link.
And also in week five, we learned about how we produce.
So, there's a lot of printing methods in that week as well.
I think the present article relates a little
bit to the question I had from the forum,
which is basically, can we do it?
>> Yeah, why.
[INAUDIBLE].
>> Yeah, he can do that. If the supports the you're using
[INAUDIBLE].
And regarding the DIY source, we actually did that long ago.
In 2008, we made a lot of for a music festival.
We handed out what was in modern.
So that's about the, yeah, that's about six years ago.
And this type of package.
If we ship off a few people [INAUDIBLE].
People can really pick it up, and then basically, you can check it out.
There basically you can [INAUDIBLE] touching stuff,
and then, maybe wear gloves [INAUDIBLE].
Of course, you know, going into the supermarket and buying stuff or
making a out of this, I think would be a little the future.
If not, you always need some special chemicals.
You need need need stuff that is not.
It's not impossible to get a hold of these tools, even through the outside.
I guess one [INAUDIBLE] would be [INAUDIBLE] about
the [INAUDIBLE] because the [INAUDIBLE].
>> [INAUDIBLE] They could purchase one of those hats.
Well, not really.
>> [LAUGH].
>> Okay, I think good exercise.
[INAUDIBLE] Again, for free.
Everything we do is for free.
And they were, I think they only made 2,000, and
they were all given away at the.
So. >> Yeah.
>> Maybe, I mean, I can go away and take my own personal product, and showing it,
bringing it into the session.
I can show it, so it doesn't.
>> [INAUDIBLE] Student in the video industry.
>> Yeah. [INAUDIBLE].
>> At the end of week, you will be seeing more of the applications.
[INAUDIBLE].
>> Saw it already. >> [INAUDIBLE] I wouldn't say it's old.
But it's certainly its many years.
[INAUDIBLE] If we don't receive that as an application, you know?
>> There's a guy asking if, well, we just give them away,
they want to purchase it, then why would we do it that way?
>> Well, if you have to understand that this, we,
our job is to develop technology.
And a very essential part of developing technology is also
demonstrating technology.
So you show that it's, it can transcend beyond imagination and
[INAUDIBLE] lofty ideas.
So, we actually, we can materialize our ideas
into a bunch of forms and the solar [INAUDIBLE].
We were sort of young back then.
I wouldn't say, we needed the money, but we certainly needed to show or
wanted to show that.
So, and so can actually work in.
So, what [INAUDIBLE] with our interest.
And then, and, and found out where with the sort of technology we have,
we can say that it is a boundary condition to this experiment.
Was that we can only use screenprinting, flatbed screenprinting to make the device.
But that means you have to unveil a new process that you [INAUDIBLE].
There was to me a very steep [INAUDIBLE] managed to do.
And it was a very pretty circular, concentric set of connected solar cells,
I think we needed an application for it and this has limited performance.
And the [INAUDIBLE] and charge the battery.
And since it was for a music festival,
[INAUDIBLE] put in a hat where we believe that would have it.
And most of the time, if it's on top of your head and starts to go up and move,
expose yourself to the sunlight.
Whereas, if you put it in your pocket where your mobile phone or something.
He reckon that it wouldn't be [INAUDIBLE] as much as it could.
So that we put a lot of thought into this demonstration, and in the end,
it turned out that the solar cell was actually the quickest thing to realize.
Most of our time was spent putting solar cells into hats, and
fixing radios, and these things.
So, we learned one very important lesson in the, when you think
about demonstration, make sure that most of the effort you are putting
into the demonstration actually goes into supporting what you're good at.
I mean, I have, we have no real experience with hats or radios, so we were,
you know, looking for hat radio people.
We would all got sources, so this is, I hope this answers the question, so,
yeah, it was a learning process for us, too.
And, I think our main conclusion was, it was great fun, but
we wouldn't do it again.
So, that's why I cancelled it, or we cancelled it.
Yes. And,
I think we just coming quickly back to this DIY, or [INAUDIBLE].
And, I just quickly mentioned [INAUDIBLE] in advance,
there's a link to the video, and there's another online.
So basically, you can make [INAUDIBLE], say something about that.
That's a different technology, and it's overrated.
>> Yeah.
But it's the personal type solar cell is a magnificent example
of a solar cell as first described in around 1990-91.
And then, and
it came out of 11% before, so
38:09
then now 25 years on it's never
really been demonstrated.
In fact you've, and you, even though it's one the most popular scholars out,
if you can very easily get a hold of the materials titanium dioxide [INAUDIBLE]
using paint [INAUDIBLE] everywhere storing the [INAUDIBLE] dioxide glasses.
Get to a, from a, [INAUDIBLE].
Anything that will color this titanium dioxide will sensitize it,
and you can a functional solar cell with very little material.
It's a very simple solar cell [INAUDIBLE].
It has some [INAUDIBLE] like in its [INAUDIBLE].
I think when the [INAUDIBLE]
really and
most often it's,
it's most current
form it's [INAUDIBLE]
to seal up for operation
of the menus [INAUDIBLE].
Yet I'm basically running out of questions and
the rest, but there's a few more in here.
[INAUDIBLE].
Yeah, one thing we could just comment on a little bit is one of
the assignments this week was and and
describe some applications you could imagine with photo cells.
And we can see in the problem, that, that many,
many of you are already I think just over a hundred post already.
So we really.
And I think this is also one of the,
the, the things that we were really getting out of this course is,
we can use you to generate ideas and we're definitely looking at them.
And many of them are really.
46:56
Because, they make this [INAUDIBLE].
>> Yeah.
I mean of course, I mean the,
there's no, normally no magic in, in, in the real world.
>> It's too expensive.
>> And, and the, if you're thinking about this [INAUDIBLE] putting in gold now,
see solar cell.
It's been demonstrated a few times.
And considering the effect's have been shown.
When you come to practical manufacture, and the, you know, if,
if you're just seeing a one out of 5% increase in your performance.
Compared to the hundred percent didn't [INAUDIBLE] in, in instability, in.
Reproduce a and all these things may,
maybe sometimes you're better off not doing these things.
You want something, to be robust and stable and
generally applicable if, if circuited absolutely.
But a lot of the time it's, should we say a physical fact,
physical phenomenon that are in operation, and
you can document that they are in operation.
Thru measuring of [INAUDIBLE] peak performance and
whether it is useful in a-.
That is not normally the qu, the way are, questions like that are answered.
And I think to our knowledge for
when people come up with these of course we try.
We don't have a most of the time it's not working.
49:15
So we use it when it's useful and when it's not, we, we don't use it.
So, so, I think the answer is if it makes it better, we do it.
>> Well, yeah, okay, another question that, that came in was basically
is there any way to make contemplate existence to increase the efficiency?
I think there's even a specific example from Garrett,
he says, if you submerge the things that may not be such a good idea if you
generally this concentrated system is a good idea.
>> I think if you can prove, concentrated systems are certainly a possibility,
I mean you more than the whole should know
you made a PhD in concentrated light for OPV.
And then for OPV interestingly the the maximum performance and
concentration is typically low concentration.
They seem to perform as a general rule,
maybe slightly better in three songs than in one song.
Some of them maybe have ten songs.
They certainly have already have 200 songs it seems like
too many trouble with the heating.
Of course, it's virtually like that, it's certainly an idea.
And I don't think is a problem.
I think you really wanted to do good things that, that so
he's called an interesting, an interesting point.
>> Certainly, I guess we could mention as well that I guess one of the reasons that
question is popping up is because when you see these storm breakers as these.
They're typically measured at a really really high concentration.
That could be at fault and it sucks.
And, and it is a really expensive [INAUDIBLE] really
getting a good [INAUDIBLE] yeah, exactly.
>> If you put a lot of materials into the structure surrounding the solar cell
the solar cell suddenly becomes a little
51:12
part of the over all systems cost with the mirrors, the tracking system.
You have to remember that concentration,
especially if it's point focus based concentration, only works with track.
So the moment you are not m, you are focal, focusing system is not looking
at the sun, you won't get any power from that.
That also means that if it's diffused by the cloud it won't work at all.
So you can only put this in an area where the sun always shines.
And you can come, fall easy pray of
having to clean your system.
Then, of course, you could have more cylindrical focusing system,
where you [INAUDIBLE].
This is, still needs some form of tracking but
not as complicated form of tracking and as, so,
generally the word is that a concentrated system is not as,
financially at least, an efficient, as efficient option
as centered, stretching out a piece of foil, or.
>> I guess [INAUDIBLE] basically the same eh,
consideration that's yeah [INAUDIBLE] basically we supplied some.
So, I think that's sort of a general agreement we have that works.
Probably not the way to go [INAUDIBLE].
>> The way I view this is that what I find interesting is that I have,
what I find interesting is that it, I think the world record now
is way over [INAUDIBLE] to maybe 50% power conversion [INAUDIBLE].
These experiments show that it is possible to take sunlight, okay,
you have to concentrate it and do stuff to it, make a few 1000s suns you have to
[INAUDIBLE] but it shows that it is possible.
Take sunlight, convert it into electricity at very high efficiency,
I think this is the main outcome of these experiments.
If you want to do this for money and do it in such an environmentally
responsible way, I'm sure solar power is.
53:12
I'm not going to, it's hard to say that it's impossible,
but I'm going to say that it's faced with challenges.
Monetary, that are, you know, maybe wouldn't put on the top of my list as
as a search topic for like, [INAUDIBLE].
Okay, I think we're about to rounding out the slide questions now.
And just before we do that I'd like you to put into the common field if
you had good audio, bad audio, if you thought about it.
We can go through it and
see how many there were, or satisfied with the policies.
Next week we will try and
improve it, we've ordered you a webcam equipment and new microphones.
So hopefully we can do a lot better.
My thoughts have been the connections.
Maybe we can go gets some other leads instead [INAUDIBLE].
And if, if you have any suggestions for this,
you are more the welcome to [INAUDIBLE].
I don't know if we have any closing remarks we'll be there again
>> Next week.
>> Absolutely, [INAUDIBLE] Money.
>> Yes.
[CROSSTALK].
To be seen.
>> And I'll just take the twitter, actually,
I don't think we have any questions in there.
Yeah, okay, so we don't have any questions there yeah, so thanks everyone.
>> Yeah, thanks, see you in a week.
>> [NOISE].