Interview Two

[MUSIC]

Welcome back.

Opportunity to continue the conversation, Steve, that we started

at the end of the second week.

Here we are now at the end of the fourth week, and I think

in the model of a spiral curriculum, if you like,

that we will come back to some of the issues and

revisit those again as we look through.

One of the things that you say and I'll just quote here,

because they're older, wiser, more experienced, more knowledgeable, and

more aware of potential dangers, than those they are responsible for,

and we're talking about teachers here,

because they're older, wiser, more experienced, etcetera.

That does, if you like,

that's sometimes quite contentious because there will be lots of occasions,

when teachers aren't necessarily wiser.

>> Mm. >> Or more knowledgeable, or

even more aware of potential dangers than some of the students in their class.

So, as a general rule I just want to give you a chance to

to elaborate on that because often students know more than their teachers

about a lot of things, but they don't get the opportunity to talk about it, or

to show that knowledge or expertise.

>> I think those expectations

come from case law from courts.

The court would expect teachers because they are older, supposedly wiser, more experienced,

to have a better understanding of the things like potential danger.

Now, of course this doesn't play out always in reality.

So, you do see some teachers who do quite foolish things,

in terms of getting their students to climb a tree and get a ball down,

or, you know, conduct some sort of scientific experiment without

proper safety procedures and so forth.

But the expectation that's being developed over time through case law,

is that teachers have a higher duty of care,

then say the duty of care that one student would owe another.

>> Yeah, that's absolutely, that's absolutely true.

The other side of that, of course, my daughter is a teacher in Scotland and

it may not apply to the same extent in Australia,

I don't know, but sometimes teachers are hugely hampered by

quote "health and safety" unquote.

>> Yeah. >> Which is always== you're not

allowed to change a lightbulb.

>> Mm.

You can't go up a ladder, as you said, climbing up a tree to

retrieve a ball, which might be a bit extreme.

But it does actually constrain a lot of the teacher's initiatives or

even head teacher's initiatives.

>> I think so and, and that's coming from a different quarter,

that's coming from litigation of a different sort and unfortunately

occupational health and safety you're really designing those sorts of rules and

regulations to cover a tiny percentage of potential things that can go wrong.

But it certainly does constrain teachers.

But it tends to be the accumulation of case law

through civil cases that really does give us guidance.

But we don't have perfect guidance.

That's the thing.

It's a matter of professional behaviour

in certain circumstances that a judge or a court would consider reasonable.

>> Yeah, and there is--

well, there ought to be a great deal of discretion in here.

>> Mm-hm. >> As to what is

actually sensible and where those boundaries are, because, as you said,

with case law, one thing happens and then suddenly that becomes law, and we all then

have to abide by that extreme example. It can be very frustrating.

Just one of those things in which obviously I think now we know pretty much

in many countries is that, when it comes to technology, when it comes to internet,

when it comes to a lot of using media, for example,

that children are often more expert than their teachers are.

>> Mm-hm.

>> And it does raise the question of to what extent teachers themselves are open

to recognising there are areas in which

children may have greater authority in an area than they do.

>> Yeah, I think there's an issue, for example with the internet and

it comes down to supervision,

and making sure that the school has got the protocols in place to

govern things like for example student access, free access to the internet.

It's another aspect of supervision.

And I think it, again, it's beholden on teachers to exercise the same supervision

that we would expect from a good parent.

That's what the courts would use as a bit of a guideline.

So again, I think where we see teachers getting in trouble,

and I sit on the council of Victorian Institute of Teaching,

which considers cases where teachers are actually deregistered.

Increasingly, we're seeing teachers get into trouble because of

their inappropriate use of social media

with students.

>> Mm-hm, yes, that's another whole can of worms, isn't it?

>> Mm.

>> Yeah, I was just thinking of lots of examples where,

a particular one we quoted in Ghana where the kid gets up and

tells the teacher, what she's actually saying--

>> Mm. >> --is incorrect, because that student has

been doing a lot of research, and looking at things on the Internet, and

talking to friends, and talking to friends globally and the teacher hasn't

that kind of background or experience. Of course, the teacher says, "Oh, sit down,

you're wrong, you don't contradict me."

As George Oduro, who, in one of the previous courses, says to her afterwards,

"Well, you know you have to recognise that sometimes the students do have

knowledge and do have expertise that is greater than your own in some areas."

And as a teacher, it is actually empowering for students

for them to be recognised as having knowledge and

information that the teachers don't have.

>> I think that's absolutely correct.

And, and one of the things that teachers need to model is the fact that they

are a learner as well.

Attempting to be the authority on everything, I think, goes against that.

And, I think the best teachers are actually quite relaxed about students,

you know, coming up with alternative explanations, or evidence. The best

teachers are good at asking questions, not always providing the definitive answers.

So, I think again, this is aspect of a relaxed authoritative style of teaching

where the teacher is expert in some areas, but doesn't pretend to be expert in all.

And I we know for example that peer to peer to learning can be very,

very powerful as well.

So, you know, the more able students or

the more knowledgeable students actually under the teacher's supervision,

teaching other students is very powerful way of going about things.

But I think any teacher

who pretends to be the font of all knowledge is asking for trouble.

>> Yes, absolutely.

Now, a very important point now, Steve,

and I think it's easier probably in Australia, or New Zealand, or UK or

whereever, for teachers,

experienced teachers who are self-confident to be able to say, "Well,

I didn't know that" or "No, you're absolutely right. I made

I made a mistake there, I didn't know."

In other countries, of course, where authority is unquestionable--

>> Mm. >> That's where we get into trouble,

don't we?

That's something that over time,

that humility, if you like, or self-confidence is something that only

comes with a lot of professional support and experience.

Let me go onto the issue of parents.

One of the things that you say is,

parents have the right to be involved either formally or informally

in the operation of the school. Does that raise difficult--

Certainly it does in plenty of places I've been researching, but in your context,

are there kind of difficult or challenging issues around that?

>> There can be.

It depends on what sort of school it is, too.

I mean, there are schools which are literally parent-controlled.

Non-government schools and parental boards and

so on are very, very powerful in terms of influencing what happens in the school.

More generally speaking though, I think parents have a right to be involved.

That is, to communicate with the school, to be involved with school functions.

Quite possibly to be involved in school committees that

the school might set up.

But obviously there's a line there that's quite important.

And when we get to the point where parents may be overruling teachers,

attempting maybe to control a

curriculum which is essentially devised, to say to the school, "My

my child is not going to take part in certain aspects of the curriculum", then we

start to get into a difficult situation, so it really is a matter of balance.

I mean, the best schools are open to parents, they're open to the community.

They communicate well.

They allow certain forms of involvement,

in fact, they welcome it.

But at the end of the day,

they still have a responsibility, which they don't abrogate.

But it does vary, it varies with context and there are situations where

parents and, you know, various groups have set up schools,

because they're worried about, if you like, the school down the road which has

got a different set of principles or beliefs to those that they have.

And if the authorities will allow that to

happen, then people will have to deal with it.

And I know members of, you know, the teaching profession, principals and so

on, in some of those schools where there's a large degree of parental involvement,

you know, can find it quite challenging.

Because they find their authority challenged on a regular basis.

So, it's a continual dialogue that has go on. to almost to mediate on everything.

>> Yeah. It is.

I mean, it's about dialogue, isn't it?

And if you can establish a genuine dialogue

that clearly and

obviously, in many cases where it's a question of confrontation, and

the teacher's not always right, of course.

>> Mm-hm. >> Because sometimes the parent

discovers the teacher's actually not particularly competent.

>> Mm-hm. >> And when you have

an incompetent teacher and the child recognises that,

the parent recognises that, and

they try to raise the issue, often schools can become incredibly defensive.

You know.

So, where parents are able to

to really be able to deal with it, confront those issues, "My child is not

getting an adequate education in this school with those particular teachers."

>> I think leadership's got a particular role to play there,

being, you know, more experienced and

hopefully with some good interpersonal qualities, and the ability to mediate, and

also, I think to confront the teacher in an appropriate way about their performance.

So, if it's quite an important professional,

almost diplomatic role that school leaders have got there.

>> Yeah. It does take us very much back to

the question of leadership, but

also what sometimes is called the big leader, head teacher or principal--

>> Mm-hm.

has to exercise a judgement and

not simply slip back at a defensive role, because you expect your principal,

or head teacher to be the person who takes your side, or

supports you and often in cases where the parent is making a malicious complaint.

So, it's quite a contested issue, isn't it, to be able to deal with

that always kind of sometimes fragile relationship with public school.

>> But I think if teachers are aware of what's expected of them,

and are acting professionally,

and they're getting feedback to assist them to act professionally,

it lessens the possibility of parents making those sorts of complaints.

But, as you say,

sometimes those complaints are entirely legitimate, and need to be handled.

>> These are all very difficult issues

and something that

probably pre-service

students don't get terribly--

pre-service students going into teaching often don't get very much help at all

on how to deal with these kind of issues, and I suppose that's something you kind of

learn as you go along, sometimes through rather harsh experiences.

Let me just finally go back to the issue that you mentioned earlier

about parents wanting their child to opt out of something in the curriculum.

One of the critical incidents, if you like,

that you mentioned is a parent rings the school and says that his child or

her child is not to take part in any of the religious related activities.

>> Mm hm.

>> And you say, what do you do? So you've posed that question, what's the answer?

[LAUGH]

>> It would depend on whether that's part of the curriculum, or

additional part of the curriculum.

But I think a wise leader in the school would try and

accommodate those wishes, if they were really heartfelt.

I've seen situations, for example, where parents have said, "I don't want anything

to do with any sort of ceremonies to do with militarism", for example.

You know, special days to do with various battles and those sorts of things.

>> Mm-hm.

>> And I think a wise principal would provide an alternative.

When it is a central part of the curriculum though,

and sometimes it might in the social sciences and social studies type course,

where religions of the world might be studied, or something like that,

then it will be a matter of communicating to a parent this is actually part of

the curriculum.

But I think most schools will provide an alternative.

However, if it's a faith-based school, a Catholic school, for example,

then it's almost part of the contract with parents, that there's

an expectation students will participate in certain activities.

So, again, context is quite important.

>> Yeah, context is hugely important because I have just--

two days ago I was in the Middle East in Dubai and before that, in Kuala Lumpur.

And you have of course very strong religious affiliations, and taboos,

and so on, so it becomes in those kinds of contexts it becomes very,

very contentious. In the States for

example, I think the answer is that schools are entirely secular.

>> Mm-hm. >> And that

religion is not part of the curriculum. But obviously

religious instruction or religious education in

Australia is a part of the curriculum, is it?

>> Some aspects would be.

But there are alternatives.

In most government schools, for example, a parent can choose for their child

not to take part in religious instruction, there's often an alternative activity.

And sometimes that's around civics and citizenship or, ethics or

some other alternative.

And there've been various pilot programs, for example, where there have been

courses in ethics for example, but these tend to be extracurricular.

But as I mentioned,

if the study of religion and belief is part of say a social studies

syllabus then the student would normally be expected to participate in that.

>> I mean, you can't, talk to it with this great objective, but

when you have a fairly really doctrinaire set of faith, if you'd like.

>> Yeah. Hm.

>> Then I think you get into very kind of

muddy waters because nothing is just factual

or neutral when you have people with

a strong religious conviction.

Anyway that's something [LAUGH],

simply as a focus for

discussion, I think you can take those kind of ideas further but it's important,

I think, for schools to be able to have access to those

kinds of discussions and when those problematic areas may lie.

I think we've exhausted a bit of our time, Steve, but

there may be something else that-- well, there's a probably a lot that we haven't

talked about-- that you might want to raise before we go on to the next weeks.

>> Yes, I think one of the important things is for the teacher to actually

recognise the culture of the school and its principles, and how it operates, and

I think if the teachers finds themself very much in opposition to some of that,

then they've really got to ask themselves,

you know, "Can I work professionally in that setting?"

That's not always the case and I think wherever possible,

it's incumbent upon teachers to support the school's position on things,

as long as like the teacher can reconcile that with their own beliefs.

So, it is a complex

a situation, the idea that there is an alignment between the principles and

values of the teacher, and the principles and values, if you like, of the school.

>> Yeah, that's one that will be a continuing source of discussion and

of course, in the forums and so on.

One of the great things about Coursera is that students, or

course members begin to discuss and talk with one another.

>> Mm. >> And I can guarantee that those issues will be

explored to a considerable extent in the forums.

Which are actually very informative, because the misconceptions or

preconceptions can obviously be cleared up by somebody who is in

the Middle East talking to someone who's in Australia, who's

in the United States, and they often have some of the very best answers to those contested questions.

So, thanks again, Steve.

And we will meet again

at the end of weeks five and six.

>> Thank you. >> Thank you.

[MUSIC]

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